How much do I say?

When my sister's husband has become an overspender, how do I help her?

As with all family drama, it's a long story.  I'll do my best to summarize, but I may ramble.  To be fair, he's not going crazy and getting them into deep doo doo.  But he's pushing the envelope, forcing them to live paycheck to paycheck, and wanting more, nicer and fancier status symbols.

He has two siblings who both make quite a bit more money than he and my sister, and spend accordingly.  They have the Lincoln Navigators, the plasma TVs, newly remodeled kitchen, etc.  The Brother in law had always been very non-materialistic.  He was a ripped jeans and t-shirt kind of guy.  He drove a many years old Nissan Sentra all through his twenties.

At one point, around the time they were planning their wedding, he started to become materialistic.  Part of it is easily attributed to the fact that he was working in a business/sales office environment for the first time.  He felt compelled to put on the show.  His clothes became more expensive, and his taste in cars got more expensive.  In a Gordon Gekko moment, he told me that he thinks greed is good because wanting nice things motivates you to work harder.

Not long after their wedding, he was planning to buy his first ever nice car.  The car was a very impractical two seater sports car, not to mention that it was too expensive for his income level.  My sister let it go because she knew that he REALLY wanted it, and he had never had a nice car or really any nice stuff.  They didn't have kids yet, so this seemed the time to do it.  Well, he was waiting a few months for the next line to come out when they found out that my sister was pregnant!

Surely, this will change his car plans, right?  Wrong.  He got the impractical sports car.  On a lease.  A five year lease.

Well, here we are four years later.  The lease termination is around the corner and it is time to get a bigger car.  One that can accommodate two baby seats. 

The brother in law is making more money than he ever has, but how much I don't know.  Whatever it is, it hasn't helped their savings.   My sister tells me that they are essentially paycheck to paycheck.  The costs of caring for two small children is understandably high.  The mortgage on the townhouse purchased last year is fairly heavy load (thank goodness we talked him out of an interest only loan).  And they have payments on the mini-van that they just bought for my sister.

My sister is urging him to get a nice, but somewhat practical car, like a Nissan Maxima or Toyota Camry.  He really wants a 3-series BMW.  What's worse is that he wants to lease again.  The 328i is anywhere from a few thousand to several thousand more than the more economical options.  However, I don't think he is considering the additional expenses that are involved with a car like that.

Ultimately, it's just one car.  It will make a difference, but it will not make or break them.  My sister admits that she doesn't know much about money stuff, and defers to the husband.  I worry that a lifetime of, "let's get the nice one, it's not that much more" will lead to a life of, "where did all of our money go?"  I care about my sister and her family, so I care what happens.  But it isn't really my business, is it?

Please help me Dear Abby.

Signed,

Don't want to become the family buttinski, but worried in Los Angeles

Comments

[dimes]

Honestly, I doubt there's much you can do without really overstepping your bounds. Your sister is the one who needs to put her foot down. And it sounds like she'd better do it NOW, while she still can and before he gets them both in way over their heads.

[Abby]

Dear LAMoneyGuy,

Lean on your sister to help her husband make the right choice. Don't approach her husband because he might be threatened. If all else fails, lay the smack down on said husband. I recommend the under-used "jump kick." That'll put some sense into him.

Sincerely,

Abby

[mapgirl]

Hm. Is this situation currently causing marital problems, i.e. actual arguments and fighting? Or is she just saying she's worried?

Maybe the thing to do is actually run through some numbers with him or talk to him about their future plans for retirement and college funds. I mean, if he has no idea that he has to save X dollars every month/week to pay for college in 15 years, or pay for retirement, than maybe a cold conversation about numbers could help him see the light?

I don't know. It's a tough call. I don't talk too much with my sibling about it. We have a check up talk about once a year or so, but we skirt the topic for a while, are vague about the numbers and breathe a sigh of relief when we find out no one is going to the poorhouse tomorrow.

[Roro-says]

The scary part in this picture is the "I don't know much about the money part - defer to husband" thing your sister is doing. Unless she's ready to put her foot down and have a say in the situation, there isn't much you can do for them.

Sometimes you see the train wreck coming and there is nothing you can do about it.

MY WAY: What I'm known to do when I see the "train wreck" is to save up some money in a kitty expressly titled "Save Sister Money." When the bad times hit as you know they will . . . and they come to you for help -- I say: "I'll help bail you out for a price - sell the crap, get out of debt, I'll help you make a budget and stay with it. And you pay me back WITH INTEREST."

I've done that ONCE . . . now, my family thinks twice when I point out to someone that I see the "train wreck" coming down the tracks.

[cityslickermom]

love the blog, by the way. I hate to say this, BUT....myob. And I mean it the nicest way.

[D]

I agree with the MYOB - sorry. I would like to tell you different. I remember being where your sister is. I probably needed to hear some info, but I wouldn't have accepted it, I trusted my husband, period.

What may be a sneaky way, but may turn out to be a good way is to give your sister money books for Christmas. If she cracks them open, which I am guessing she will, she will slowly begin to see and grasp concepts. Purchase books that focus on the "girl, getting her money straight", kind of thing.

Don't worry, it is only money. And you are not designated saver of all lost. Feel better now?

[mapgirl]

I see the MYOB argument. If she hasn't asked you for actual help, then perhaps you should stay out of it till she makes it your business with a request for assistance?

But there isn't anything wrong with gentle nudging. Maybe you can send her to a PFBlog run by a mommyblogger and say, 'Oh, I thought you might like this parenting site.'

[S/100/30]

I think MYOB is bad advice in this case, because it seems that she is reaching out: people don't divulge information like "we're living paycheck to paycheck" to make small talk. I think she's scared and hoping that you can help her figure out how to break the deferential habit.

[KT]

I read your blog often and never comment. However I really think you should mind your own business. Having been the sister it is not helpful to have family butting in. She knows that she doesn't like the situation but she loves her husband and doesn't want him viewed as the family idiot. Having to hear it from you will only make her feel bad and won't change much. They have to decide together that they want to change and no amount of outside interference will make that happen. There is hope, they are still young and can turn things around. Believe me I know.

[KT]

I read your blog often and never comment. However I really think you should mind your own business. Having been the sister it is not helpful to have family butting in. She knows that she doesn't like the situation but she loves her husband and doesn't want him viewed as the family idiot. Having to hear it from you will only make her feel bad and won't change much. They have to decide together that they want to change and no amount of outside interference will make that happen. There is hope, they are still young and can turn things around. Believe me I know.

[Frugal Frugalson]

I wouldn't get involved unless your sister specifically asks for your help. Offering unsolicited advice can cause a lot of anger and resentment.

I am sadly watching this situation occur with two family members myself. In one case, they have used $80k of their home equity like a bank account to pay for home repairs and upgrades, new cars, vacations, and miscellaneous "stuff". What I don't understand is that a few years ago this couple was extremely frugal, but they somehow became hyper consumers. It is sad, but they are adults free to make their own choices...

[Inchoate Random Abstractions]

Maybe it's a cultural thing, but I agree with Mapgirl. MYOB doesn't always work. In my family, what's mine somehow gets inextricably entwined with what's my parents and my brother's stuff. So, when my brother got into a bad situation last year (lots of credit card debt and refinancing the condo to pull out equity), my parents and I had an 'intervention' session with him and told him that he needed to get his act together. The buck stops here. No more handouts. I then asked him if he'd be willing to read a personal finance book if I sent it to him. And he said 'yes'. So, I ordered David Bach's Automatic Millionaire for him. He's now putting some of those principles into practice. Like your sister, my sis-in-law defers to my brother. But surprisingly, after he read the book, he talked to her about it. And she listened. So now they're listening to another David Bach book together on CD.

Also, everyone spends money differently. If your brother-in-law is really into showy cars, then maybe he can eat out less. Sometimes, just pointing out the basics to someone actually helps them rethink their priorities. My brother is really into gadgets, but he could care less about clothes. So, I don't give him a hard time about the gadgets, but I do explain how he and his wife can save money in other ways. There are smaller suggestions that you can make without being offensive. And sometimes, when people master one concept, you can introduce others to them.

[lamoneyguy]

Thank you all for your comments. Please keep them coming. Here's what I have decided for now. I will mostly MMOB, but if directly asked by my sister, I will not hold back in my advice.

I think the education route that was suggested is a good one. Books or a PFblog by a mom is a good idea.

One of the less important, but underlying issues in this is that the brother in law thinks leasing is a great idea. I'm going to spend some time researching lease vs buy in more detail to that I can explain the difference to him clearly and factually.

[SCapitalist]

I agree that you should MYOB unless asked directly by your sister. Finances can be an extremely touchy subject, especially when there is not much to go around.

Life is an accumulation of choices over time. It's true that a BMW is "Just one car..." but you have to think that the money they save away today will set the foundations for tomorrow. A BMW is a status symbol. Status symbols should be EARNED, not bought. You EARN status by correctly managing your finances over time.

Just my opinion. Love the blog, BTW.

[Foobarista]

Making sure everyone's well educated on PF issues is a good start.

The problem with people in sales is they're basically trained to chase money. The culture of sales organizations is always to focus on the hot deals ahead of you, and inevitably the sales staff tries to impress each other with their various forms of bling. Hotshot sales types are rarely the sorts to be frugal, since they expect to make big bux anytime now, and sometimes see - or think they see - people around them doing so.

Maybe you should encourage him to change careers and become an accountant :)

[Foobarista]

I have little doubt that the "Gordon Gekko" stuff came from his sales training...

[writergirl]

I can tell you mean well and are worried for your sister. It sounds like she has reached out to you, so why not work on her instead of him? Also, she's a blood relative and he's not. As touchy as family members can be, family-member-in-laws are worse. Encourage her to learn more about personal finance by linking her up with a few blogs, if the Internet is her thing, or a couple of books if she's a reader. Tell her how much you love Suze Orman (or something PF-related that is equally easy to digest) if she's a TV person. It may take a couple of years, but as she gets more and more educated, she will ask him more questions and hopefully start putting her foot down. It's better anyway that she takes an active role in their finances than you trying to convert her husband. Start with her.

Reading over this, it's funny how it reads like we're all telling you to get her to join the PF cult.